Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Alefyah: So I guess we're talking about pursuers today, huh, Michelle?
[00:00:03] Michelle: That is exactly right. I'm not surprised you know that, Alefyah, because you and I are very clearly pursuers. Yeah. So, Ty, how do you feel about that? Because you. You're not a pursuer.
[00:00:16] Alefyah: You got three of us ganging up on you today.
[00:00:19] Ty: I'm fine with it. As a withdrawer, I can just sort of go quiet.
[00:00:24] Michelle: So it's your sweet spot.
[00:00:28] Ty: That is my coping skill.
[00:00:29] Michelle: Right.
[00:00:30] Ty: That's my go to. So I could. I could just sort of let you guys sort of take it away, right?
[00:00:36] Michelle: Yeah. As a pursuer, I don't know that people are ever asking me to say more. So, Ty, we'll try to make sure you get to say something today.
[00:00:45] Ty: I'll be sure to. To throw in and sort of share my. My perspective as a withdraw. So I think this will be really fun today.
[00:00:53] Alefyah: We might learn a thing or two. Who knows?
[00:00:55] Michelle: And you're going to get your turn.
[00:00:57] Ty: We will.
[00:00:57] Michelle: We will be talking about withdrawers in another episode.
[00:01:01] Alefyah: Sure. She can't wait for that one.
[00:01:03] Ty: It's gonna be a short one.
[00:01:09] Intro: Welcome to Threads of Connection, the podcast where three licensed therapists listen to your stories and help strengthen relationships. We believe in the power of connection, whether it's with your partner, family, or friends. Join us as we dive into real stories and offer expert insights into human relationships. Now let's get connected with Alethea, Tiana, and Michelle.
[00:01:36] Michelle: So everybody knows that opposites attract, right?
Some people in relationships really want to be close, and other people seem to need a little bit of space and a little bit of distance. And it seems like those people always end up together. So today we want to talk about the people who are longing to be close, but somehow they just never quite get there. So if you're one of these people, you may find yourself feeling like nobody wants to be quite as connected as you are, and you're always kind of chasing them. And then sometimes when a person does want to be close to you, even though they're saying all the things you want them to say, it's really hard for you to believe it's true. Doesn't even feel like it's real. Sometimes these people get slapped with labels, like anxious or needy. We call them pursuers. Regardless of what you're called, you want what everybody else wants. Safe relationships with significant people in your life. Today on Threads of Connection, we have a letter from someone whose struggle might sound really familiar to you. Tie.
[00:02:45] Ty: Hi, everybody. Thank you, Michelle.
Yes, We've got A letter here from someone who is experiencing exactly what you described.
So let's jump on in and see what we can do. My name is Lindsay. I've been feeling terribly lonely in my marriage. I am married to a wonderful man, Bob. For the last 15 years, he has helped create a beautiful home for us. He's caring, loyal, and an amazing father. People looking at us from the outside think we have the perfect marriage, the perfect life.
I feel terrible even complaining. I'm so grateful for what I have and who he is, but I just don't feel connected to him anymore. Life has become so routine. Anytime I want to talk about my feelings about anything, he seems to either not care or get annoyed with me. I really want him to understand me better. I want him to hear what I struggle with during the day and discuss fears and concerns about our kids. He just gets so quiet whenever I speak about anything even remotely big. It feels like he just doesn't care.
So there's our letter from Lindsay.
[00:04:07] Michelle: Man.
[00:04:08] Ty: Yeah. Isn't that tough?
[00:04:10] Michelle: Yeah, that's tough. Wow.
[00:04:12] Alefyah: So, Lindsay, you know, thanks so much for just sharing your heart with us. And, you know, it really speaks to your courage of saying, look, everybody thinks this is perfect. I'm getting those messages from the world, and I'm getting messages from my husband that I'm just complaining for no reason. But you still reached out because you're fighting for something more than just, you know, having all the things around you or checking the boxes. You're like, I'm fighting to connect, and I just really love your heart here right now. That's saying, yeah, I want. I want to really connect with my husband, and I want to be seen.
[00:04:47] Michelle: And that's such a. That's such a neat thing about pursuers, is that they will put themselves out there over and over if they need to, because they are so committed. And we're going to next episode, we're going to talk about the people who are more like Lindsay's husband. They do something really, really important, too. But for today, let's talk about pursuers, which is pretty exciting for me because I am, for sure, a pursuer. So Lindsay's letter really resonates with me, what it's like to really want to share and not just update somebody on what's going on, but, like, let's connect. Let's really.
Let's mine this for information. Let's analyze it. Let's sit and have those long talks and long walks. I mean, that's. That is a pursuer's dream, right? So I. I would just like to say to all the pursuers out there, I feel you. This is my. This is my.
I know exactly. I know exactly what you're going through. But. But not everybody on this podcast is a pursuer, right, Ty?
[00:05:53] Ty: That is very, very true. Yes. So I can completely sort of see where Bob is coming from.
So I know how it looks, and I know how it feels to hear your partner coming to you with some of these big conversations and to just sort of not be able to say anything. And then what it looks like on the outside is we don't care.
We're distant. But that's really not the case for withdrawals. And, yes, we'll talk about that in a. In a different podcast in more depth. But right now, you know, as a withdrawer, we might look like we don't care, but we really do.
We're just trying to manage what we think the expectations are.
[00:06:53] Michelle: So you're not mad all the time. Is that what you're trying to tell me?
[00:06:58] Ty: Right, Michelle? Yes. When I sort of look like I'm completely not hearing you, I am hearing, but I'm just sort of really trying to take it all in and process it. But that comes across as mad, not connected, rude, all of those things.
[00:07:17] Michelle: Well, and you probably noticed, I mean, I will speak for pursuers, that the more I chase somebody, the less I get what I want. So the more I sort of reach out and say, come close to me, come close to me, then with somebody like you, Ty, would back away, because that feels like too much. And the more you back away, the more likely I am to run after you, especially in a romantic relationship. So my marriage, for example, is where you really see that. And as therapists, when we see this happen, it's painful because you see two people who really care, want that relationship to work, and they are just shooting themselves in the foot over and over and over. Which is kind of what we want to do with this podcast, is help people maybe get some ideas about how to stop shooting yourself in the foot.
[00:08:05] Ty: Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah.
[00:08:08] Alefyah: Michelle, I think you're really speaking to the heart and the struggle that pursuers are dealing with. Or it's like, the more I want something, the more I go after it, and then it's. I'm actually pushing it away, you know, and it's just so hard, you know, in life when you really want something at work, and we put that and go get attitude towards it, we get it right, it's successful, it works. And then in our relationships, it's like, oh, no, it's not working here.
And so that. That is really speaking to the heart of what Lindsay's kind of asking for. It's like, the harder I try, I see, I. I just can't get through to Bob. He's going away, he's avoiding me, he's getting quiet. And now, since I've been more explicit about it, he's just avoided me altogether. And I can really feel the pain of that.
So it's just, how do you get that? How do you go after what you want? Because I don't want you to lose your heart with that, Lindsay. But also create a space so that Bob feels like he can give it to you, that he's successful in giving it.
[00:09:11] Michelle: You know, something that I noticed. Lindsay, it's just so sweet. I mean, really, she's such an appealing pursuer. You know, she's really asking for what she wants. And we're going to talk about that more in a minute. But that's not always how it looks. So sometimes pursuers can be pretty critical and they can get really mad. I don't hear that Lindsay is doing that, and that's great. But I do want to, you know, you might be listening right now and think I'm not really sweet about it all the time when I'm asking my partner to pay attention to me. And that's. That's normal. That's okay. We can work with that. So I just want to. I just want to pat people on the. On the back a little bit and say it's okay. That even. That it's just part of how much it matters for that relationship to be good. And sometimes that really escalates a person. So let's talk about. What are some strategies if somebody really hears themselves being described right here? I don't know. Alia, do you have. What's an idea for something that they.
That they can do to maybe make this go a little better?
[00:10:19] Alefyah: Right. So, you know, again, you're speaking to a lot of the cycle that we get into. Harder I chase the. You know, the more somebody's being pulled away. And often in this cycle, both people feel just hopeless and frustrated, and they start saying, you know, well, if you would just come forward a little bit and not be so unavailable, I wouldn't have to chase so hard or I wouldn't be doing this. And if you just backed off a little bit, then I could be more available to you. And so one of the things that, you know, Sue Johnson, who is a brilliant therapist, who we model a Lot of our therapy against is she wrote a book called Hold Me Tight. And one of the key things that she's talking about is that kind of gets people disconnected and has them continually missing each other. She names it as, like, finding the bad guy. And that's when we're. We're kind of looking at the other person and we're identifying everything that they're doing wrong in this interaction that's messing it up. And if you would just be this way or if you would just be this way, we would. We would be better. And you know what? You might be right.
Your analysis for the other person. And, yeah, that magically changed. It would be right. But when you're pointing it out, what it does is just brings out defensiveness. It pulls out defensiveness of people. You know, people don't want to hear criticism. People don't want to hear what they're doing wrong.
[00:11:46] Ty: Right. Even from their partner.
[00:11:48] Michelle: Right, Right.
[00:11:49] Alefyah: Especially from their partner, I think.
[00:11:52] Michelle: Yeah.
[00:11:53] Alefyah: So the best tip there is, like, pause for a moment. Yeah. You might. You might be noticing some things that aren't. Aren't the best. But what. What are some things that you're doing? Can we look inward for a moment? Of when I'm chasing, what part of me am I not bringing out right now? Am I not bringing out my heart that says, hey, I miss you today? Am I, you know, why don't you take me out to dinner? Why aren't you getting me flowers? You know, when. When you're chasing with that energy, what are you kind of missing in yourself? Is it the, hey, I miss you. I want to spend time with you. I want to connect with you.
[00:12:32] Ty: Beautifully said.
[00:12:33] Michelle: You know that that's really hard to do. It sounds so simple when we're reading somebody's letter or we're just talking about it this way, but once things heat up, I'll just talk about me. When my feelings are hurt or I feel rejected or like I'm not going to get what it is that I really want or need. It is so hard to say things like you just said, which is lovely. And I will say in therapy, when we can help people send what we would call a really clear message, like what you just said, Alethea, it. It works. It works a lot of the time. Not every time, but it works a lot better than finding the bad guy, than pointing the finger. So I think another thing that helps people to stop finding the bad guy, to just own up to this is what I really want from you, is to be able to Calm your nervous system down. So a lot of people don't know this, but our need for healthy relationships, for safe relationships, is just as strong as our need for things like food and water and shelter. In our brains. This is not philosophical. This is science. And so if you were starving, if you hadn't eaten for days and somebody put food in front of you, what would you do? You would frantically eat. You would probably hoard a little bit of it. It's hard to stay calm when you're not getting what you really need to survive. Our brains think it's an emergency when our partner is walking out of the room, when we need them to hear that our feelings are hurt or we're lonely. And so knowing that helps. That is our brain on overload. And it really can be helpful to calm down our nervous system before we open our mouth. Or if you're like me and you open your mouth and then realize that your nervous system is. Is on overdrive to take a break, take a pause. You know, feel that you. You probably have ways, if you pay attention, that your body tells you that you are in overdrive. Like maybe your heart beats really fast or your head gets buzzy, right? You have that rushing in your ears, and that is the time to get away from what it is. That's. That's really, really upsetting or who it is. It's really, really upsetting. You might take a walk, you might sip some water, take some deep breaths, exercise, do some things to regulate. And then it's going to be a lot easier to do those really courageous things. So for Lindsay, for example, to be able to not just say to Bob something like, you're not paying attention to me or you're not listening to me. If she can feel regulated, she might say the really hard thing, which is, bob, I miss you. I want your opinion on this. I. I don't want to do life and parenting without you. Will you come listen to me? And that's hard to say no to. It's hard to say. But if she can say it, it's really. It's going to be hard for Bob to say no to that. Because it went from, you're not a good husband to you're the good husband that I want, which is, you know, pretty different. So I would say, yeah, stop trying to find a bad guy. And in order to do that, you gotta get regulated first. Gotta find a way. And it is so hard. It is so hard to do. But if you can do it, I don't know, 70% of the time. You're. You're ahead of the game. Right.
[00:16:14] Ty: So what, you're a bit of a rock star if you can do it. 7%.
[00:16:18] Michelle: Exactly. 100%.
[00:16:20] Alefyah: Well, fun fact. You only need to get it right one third of the time.
[00:16:24] Ty: What?
[00:16:25] Alefyah: A third of the time? And that's. You have a healthy, good relationship. So healthy couples get it wrong two thirds of the time.
[00:16:32] Michelle: Wow, I love that.
[00:16:34] Ty: I need to remember to share that with my parents.
[00:16:39] Michelle: Yeah, no, that's true. That's what research tells us. And it's okay to mess it up, just fix it. Just make a repair. After you finally calm down, go back and fix it. Marriages are not made at people who get along all the time and never fight and never mess it up. That's just not reality. Marriages last because they know how to fix it.
Okay. Anything else for Lindsay?
[00:17:06] Alefyah: Well, Ty, you know, as a withdrawer, is there, you know, when we're talking about coming in softer and kind of calming ourselves down. I'm a pursuer as well. And I think those are great tips for us to be more successful when we're coming into these conversations. But as it withdraws or anything that you can think of where. How we can show up for you, that would invite you into these conversations in a better way.
[00:17:33] Ty: So with being a withdrawer, it's being able to. For the pursuer to sort of come to the withdrawer with a little less oomph, a little less energy.
As a withdrawer, when we see high emotions, elevated emotions, a raised voice, we automatically start to think, uh, oh, what did I do wrong? Because for a withdrawal, it's really about being able to get things right. And if things are going well, then I've done a good job, right? Even if it's at my relationship, I've done a good job. And if you come to me with, can we talk about something important? Or you don't ever listen to me, then I hear that as a withdrawal that I did it wrong. And so one suggestion would be to come a little softer and say, you know, for Lindsay to say, bob, I'm really missing you right now. I need you to be with me in this moment. I need you to be present. I need to be able to share something important with you. Can. Can you just come. Can we sit down? Can we go and have dinner and talk about it? Whatever it is? But more of an invitation to talk than an accusation that as a withdrawer, I'm doing something wrong. And as Alifia said, we probably won't get it right all the time. Two thirds of the time, the withdrawal will get it not right.
And that's okay, but if we can strive for that one third and Bob can sort of say, yeah, just give me a second. Right. Let me. Let me sort of do my own calming of the nervous system. Right. And let me try to be present with you. Right. And so I'm going to try to get out of my head and get more into sort of this other place where I can tap into my love for Lindsay and hear what it is that she has to say and know that she's not accusing me or judging me or blaming me. And then we can sit down and have a conversation. And as a withdrawal, I may be quiet, but that means I'm processing.
[00:20:10] Michelle: I feel like my husband just wrote everything that he always tries to tell me and handed it to you. Ty.
Well, what do you know?
[00:20:26] Ty: Sounds like me, your husband get along just fine.
[00:20:31] Michelle: Well, quietly. You would both quietly get along, right?
[00:20:35] Ty: Absolutely. Absolutely.
[00:20:37] Alefyah: I love hearing your perspective because it really gives a mindset of like, oh, when you're quiet or, you know, as a pursuer, I feel like there's a filter that says, oh, that person doesn't care about me. They think I'm too much. But, you know, it's. What you're saying is completely different. It's just like, oh, I'm feeling like I'm getting it wrong. I feel like I'm not gonna be able to show up in the right way.
[00:21:02] Ty: Right.
[00:21:02] Alefyah: And you're also speaking to a another reason where self regulation is great. Like what everything Michelle was talking about. It's not only so you can calm yourself down. Pursuer kind of pull out that more vulnerable, hey, I need you with softer things. But also is going to invite that withdraw to come closer to you when you're coming from a softer side.
[00:21:24] Ty: Absolutely. Yeah.
Well, I hope that we helped Lindsay and gave her some guidance and some ideas and suggestions with trying to have easier or more open conversations with Bob.
[00:21:44] Michelle: Next time we'll we have another letter from somebody who is a little more on the other side. Right. From Lindsay. We'll have some good tips for them too.
If you want some reminders about the suggestions from today, be sure you go to the show Notes. And we've also got some resources that might be really helpful. Some books, websites that you might want to go to to start doing a little research. So be sure to check that out. Don't forget to subscribe to the podcast for more episodes about relationships and understanding how they work and making them better. Ladies, this was fun. I appreciate you guys. Also, in the show notes there's a link for your questions, so we would love to hear what you want to hear about. Drop us a line. It can be completely anonymous and confidential, however you want that to go.
[00:22:40] Ty: Thank you all for listening and spending some time with us and we hope that you will join us again. Take care everybody.
[00:22:51] Alefyah: Thanks for joining us today on Threads of Connection. If you have questions or stories you'd like us to discuss, email us at lettersreadsofconnection podcast podcast.com follow us on Instagram and Facebook at Threads of Connection Podcast for updates. Don't forget to subscribe, review and share our podcast with your family and friends. Your support helps us build more meaningful connections. We look forward to hearing from you. Until next time.
