Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Michelle: Okay, we've covered withdrawers. We've covered pursuers, presumably. We've covered everybody. So we're done, right? There's nothing.
No, of course there's more. We've got a lot to talk about.
[00:00:16] Alefyah: Awesome.
[00:00:17] Welcome to Threads of Connection, the podcast where three licensed therapists listen to your stories and help strengthen relationships. We believe in the power of connection, whether it's with your partner, family, or friends. Join us as we dive into real stories and offer expert insights into human relationships. Now let's get connected with Alefyah, Tyana, and Michelle.
[00:00:44] Michelle: So nice to be back with you. I had a lot of fun last time talking about pursuers and relationships, and so that actually leads me to what we want to talk about today. So, ever noticed, some of you listeners, that when there's a fight brewing or happening that you just kind of freeze? Your brain starts to slow down? It's probably hard to come up with words. It might be hours or days later when you're like, oh, that's what I should have said, because in that moment, you just shut down and kind of go away. Maybe literally. You may, like, disappear into your phone or go into another room or you may stay, but you just really don't have a lot to say. And maybe you've gotten some feedback that you don't care, that you don't listen, that you're cold or robotic. And you know that's not true, but it's really hard to explain, explain what's happening with you.
So that's what we want to talk about today. We are going to talk about withdrawers who very often end up in relationships with pursuers. And it just so happens that a friend of the show has DM'd us with a dilemma that Aletheia is going to tell you about.
[00:02:09] Ty: Yes.
[00:02:09] Alefyah: So Max was very brave in DMing us on Instagram, kind of shared his conflict. And he writes, my wife says I don't listen to her, but I do. It's just that when she raises her voice or repeats herself, it gets harder and harder to respond. I end up just shutting up until she's done. I don't know what to do differently.
[00:02:35] Michelle: Man. Let me just say first, Max, that is so brave of you to write in and describe what's happening, because that is a frustrating dilemma, and it can be really painful. So we really. We appreciate you writing in because a lot of people are going through the same thing.
As a matter of fact, Ty, you are our withdrawer in residence here. The one. Yes. So you.
I think we all understand what Max is going through, but you get it. A gut level would, what's that like when. When he describes what happens. What's it like to be a withdrawer?
[00:03:15] Ty: Great question. And I also want to thank Max for sending us this question, because this can be very difficult and even heartbreaking for a withdrawer to feel like we keep having these same arguments over and over again, and what am I doing wrong?
And so, you know, when couples get caught in argument after argument, each one just continually feels unheard. And I know that's how I feel. I can always express myself the way I would like to in conflict with my husband.
And ultimately, the fear is that we don't want the disconnection to get any worse or to get any bigger, so we go quiet. But, you know, as a withdraw myself, I think we can be misunderstood by our partners. A lot of times, especially in the midst of a conflict, you can hear some really hurtful statements by your partner. They may use words like, you're so cold. You know, you're just heartless. I don't think you even love me. You know, you're dead on the inside. I mean, those are just some real emotional daggers that withdrawers can hear sometimes in the midst of an argument. And if that doesn't shut a withdraw down, I don't know what else would. But those words could not be further from the truth for us as withdrawers. We do have emotions.
We have learned to create a distance to them or maybe even, like, suppress them, especially in times of stress or high conflict with the people that we love. We don't want to fail.
[00:05:12] Ty: Right.
[00:05:13] Ty: Withdrawers don't want to be looked at as failing at maybe anything, but especially in their important love relationships. Right? We don't want to get it wrong. And when we get those messages of, you don't hear me, you're not listening to me, you just get up and go in the other room. That can be pretty overwhelming to us, and it tells us that we are getting it wrong when we're really just trying to protect the relationship, you know? You know, I want to just kind of take a minute to pause, right. And just acknowledge that the strategies that we withdrawers use, they make sense given our attachment histories. Right. So I might be taking us back there, ladies, but we talking a little bit about our families of origin and our bonds with our primary caretakers. And oftentimes a withdrawal may be we were not exposed to those positive experiences, right? Where we could express our emotions freely, where we could experience them and felt like we were in A safe place where we could do that. And so it is not my fault and it is not your fault. Withdrawers out there who are listening to this, you didn't know how to be any different. And that's what leaves us stuck in this place, is we didn't have the skills. We didn't have the flexibility from people who were close to us growing up that said it was okay to feel. And so now we struggle to feel and to be able to feel our partner's feelings. But once we learn, we rock. That's all I'm gonna say.
We're awesome.
[00:07:12] Alefyah: Wonderfully said. I really hope some withdrawers are listening at home right now and can resonate with what you're saying of how it's hard. But also, I really, really want to reiterate what you said. If we have. We all, as humans, have every single emotion, and it's just of being stuck with. I. I don't know what to do right now.
[00:07:35] Ty: Right.
[00:07:36] Alefyah: You said, I'm scared. I want to keep the connection. And I'm scared if I make a move, if I'm scared, if I do it wrong, it's going to break the connection, that it's going to make things worse. So you're actually quiet for good reason or going away for good reason. It's not because you don't care. You know those words you said of, oh, you're dead inside, or that. That really felt like a gut punch to me. If anybody else has heard those kind of words, just that hope you can take some solace in knowing that's not true. The work we do with Gujarat every day, when they're feeling at peace, when they're feeling they can be successful. There's beautiful words, beautiful emotions that come from that.
It's just having to learn how to do it. You didn't have experience doing this growing up. And so you're just. You're stuck for a good reason. And it's not because you don't care. It's because you don't want to mess it up. You want to keep the peace. You want that connection. You're scared it's going to get worse if you do the wrong thing, so you end up doing nothing at all.
[00:08:33] Ty: Yeah.
[00:08:34] Alefyah: Kind of stuck in a really bad position. No. Hey, my partner wants me to speak. They want something from me. They're asking me to respond right now and show some emotion that I don't think I can get right. And if I speak up, it can make it a million times worse.
[00:08:46] Speaker C: I don't want to do that.
[00:08:47] Alefyah: If I run away from this, at least I still feel a little bit better. But then they think I really don't feel. There is no good move you have there. It's a really tough dilemma over and over and over. And the more you get pushed to do something, the more pressure you feel and the more paralyzed you feel from this decision and not knowing how to get it right.
[00:09:10] Ty: Absolutely.
[00:09:12] Michelle: So then, Alefyah, what you're saying about not having any good options makes a lot of sense for what's going on with Max. He doesn't want to make a mistake, but if he goes away, he gets accused of not caring. Those are not good choices. So if there's two bad choices, can we help him come up with a third? Good choice, better choice. You know, I was thinking, when I see couples in my office, most of the couples have at least one withdrawer. Something that really seems to help is if the withdrawer can lean in just a little, not all the way. We don't want you to drown, but I'll give you an example of what that looks like when your partner is complaining or criticizing or attacking. Leaning in a little might mean taking a breath and doing some self talk that says, this can be okay, and then just saying to your partner, I'm listening. So you don't even have to come up with the words in that moment. You might just listen.
Now I know what some of you are thinking.
I can't do that. My heart beats so fast, my mind goes numb. If I just sit there and listen, I will drown.
So another option if you're getting that drowning feeling, is to ask for a timeout. And I really recommend that you agree with your partner on this before it's time for the timeout. And it's really helpful if you can say something like, this really matters to me. I need time to think about it. Now, here's the thing with drawers. You have to come back. So if you take the time out, let your heart rate regulate, and then come back ready to listen and to say what's true for you, it's a big deal. This is a big job. But this is the way that you can show up as your honest, true self, but also take care of yourself. Ty, how does that. You're the actual withdrawer here. How does that track for you?
[00:11:24] Ty: I think you gave really important, valid, workable. Right. Suggestions for withdrawals to start to try to use. I know personally, for me, I have to kind of try to not listen to my heart beating in my ears in the midst of a conflict and really focus on what my spouse is saying.
And I use positive self talk, right? I say, in the moment, Ty, listen to what he is saying. Just listen. And if I use that, if I tell myself that in the moment, there is a shift created. I don't hear the beating of my heart as loudly and I can tune in or lean in more to him and what he's saying. Does it work all of the time? No, but it definitely helps. I think that's the important piece. I try to do something different every time.
[00:12:36] Michelle: Well, it does take two. And, you know, we talked last episode about pursuers. They have their own script rolling inside their head, their own moves that they use to keep themselves safe. And so of course, it is not completely up to either person to make it go well. And sometimes both people try their level best and a particular conversation just doesn't go well. That doesn't mean the relationship's not going to work. It means there are some things to learn from.
So I appreciate you sharing that. I hear how much you listen to your body and you have these words of truth kind of already queued up for you so that when it starts to happen, you can tell yourself the truth, which is, I mean, you didn't say these words, but I would say, ty, you're a good person. You love him. This is going to be okay. Try to listen. Just try to listen. That's lovely. It made me feel more relaxed. Alethie, how about you? You do a lot of work with couples. You're a pursuer who has loved withdrawers. What do you. What do you find that has worked well?
[00:13:46] Ty: One thing that really stood out that you just said, Michelle, was the, you have to come back. And not only do you have to come back, but let the pursuer know you're going to come back. I think that's just so important. Once as a pursuer, if I hear the withdrawer say, hey, I'm. I can't do this right now, but I'm going to come back. And knowing when they're going to come back, that just settles me down so much faster. Like, hey, I'm getting overwhelmed right now, or I need to go away to process this, or my head's really busy right now. I. Can we talk about this at 7:00 tonight? I'm going to come and initiate it. I'll talk to you about it if I know that person's coming back. Calms me down.
[00:14:28] Michelle: So, Alethea, as you're saying that, it's reminding me of a couple I saw one time who agreed to do the timeout strategy and the withdrawer intended to come back. But I think once he got into a room by himself and felt really peaceful, he forgot.
He forgot his pursuer. She was in another room. They had already agreed that their timeouts would be 30 minutes. And so she waited 30 and then 35. And finally at 45, she went back and found him.
So don't, don't do that. Withdrawals. But doesn't that say so much about how much the withdrawer is craving peace? And it is okay, by the way, at the end of 30 minutes to say, I'm still really escalated. Can I have another 15? Is better than where she felt forgotten.
[00:15:27] Ty: Thank you so much for sharing that story, because I could think of a million different ones too, where it goes wrong in. In different ways. So don't lock yourself in. And those, those 15 minutes after the 30 probably felt like five hours for the pursuer. I guess the point that you're really making with that story, Michelle, is that that piece is so important.
[00:15:47] Michelle: Exactly.
[00:15:48] Ty: With the withdrawer. And so, yeah, that helps. It helps the pursuer. Because I'm talking as a person. I'm like, this is what I need. I need you to come back. I need you to give me a little bit of a break. And, you know, that helped me understand a little bit of the withdrawer, as you were saying that it's like maybe they're getting that piece or maybe they're even feeling more pressure that 30 minutes. They might be like, oh, shit, now I gotta go back. Now I gotta figure out exactly how to go back. Now they're waiting for me to get back. So that strategy could be good. It could help you calm down. You could do that beautiful self talk that Ty was talking about. Get your nervous system regulated, know exactly how to jump right back in. Or maybe it doesn't work. Yeah, because withdrawals are really good at compartmentalizing. They're really good at kind of come down and they might still not have the strategies to go back that they didn't have 30 minutes ago. So what can we do then?
[00:16:39] Michelle: Like, doing something new is messy. And so in that example, they were doing something new and it didn't go great.
[00:16:47] Ty: That's okay.
[00:16:48] Michelle: So let's learn from that. We'll be doing an upcoming episode on making repair, and that's what has to happen when it gets messy. So we're not going to not try new things and we're going to have some forgiveness for ourself and the other person because it's hard to do new things. It was hard for that withdrawer to ask for the break, and it was hard for that pursuer to say, okay, they both were being so brave to do something different.
And then it's like a kid learning to roller skate. It wasn't pretty. Yeah, but you get up, you dust yourself off, you make some repair, and you live to see. See another day.
[00:17:27] Ty: And they're trying, you know, it's. It's not really a failure when you're trying to do it differently. And you might have to try a bunch of different strategies before you find something that works. But what you're always doing differently is realizing this is an issue, and we want to connect, we want to do it differently. Let's try this other way out.
[00:17:45] Ty: Right?
[00:17:46] Ty: Doesn't work. Hey, it didn't work. Can we try something different?
[00:17:50] Michelle: Tell me what you think about this strategy. Alefyah and Ty, as a pursuer who's married to a withdrawer, something I will really appreciate is when he is proactive.
So he will do things when we are not in an argument to let me know that I mean something to him. Like a text in the middle of the day, how are you doing? Thinking of you. Or a hug when I walk in the door. So I think it's easier sometimes for withdrawers to lean in when things are calm and good already, and that can build the relationship. It won't eliminate disagreements or tension. But I do think withdrawers feel a little more control over what's happening in those calmer moments. And if they can reach out and pursue, it can build some safety in the relationship.
[00:18:44] Ty: Oh, I like that a lot. You know, as a pursuer, I'm saying, oh, yeah, if that person's reaching out to me throughout the day, that makes me feel better. And I could see how maybe there won't be some weird buildup where I'll, like, come towards them later, like, ah, they didn't talk to me for hours, or whatever else. And I'm guessing it might make feel like the stakes are low because you're pursuing when it's not demanded of you. Is that how you're hearing it, Ty? Would that. How would that feel to you?
[00:19:10] Ty: My thoughts are when the pressure isn't on to perform or do it right. Right. When the demand isn't right there in your face, then as a withdrawal, we can perform very well. We can do what needs to get done. And so if things are in a more calm state and I just think of my spouse then and like, oh, Let me send. Let me send him a text. Right. And I know that that is pleasing to him. Then I know that I've done it right, you know, and I didn't fail. Those thoughts, of course, aren't in the forefront of my mind, but the love and the care is. And so when things are calm, that loving care is more open, it's more flexible. It's in the present. And you can lean into that piece on those days or weeks or months when things are fine.
And so, yeah, when the pressure isn't on, I think it's a great idea to reach out and be kind and gentle or show attention in little, small ways. We don't have to be grand. But I think that's a great suggestion, Michelle. Absolutely.
[00:20:30] Ty: And just to play devil's advocate for a minute, because I can see this going wrong as well, and I've heard it go wrong with a lot of my clients because the pursuers will be thinking about them all day long. They'll take breaks from work, check in, and they feel like the withdrawer doesn't care because they're not doing that. And what I hear from drawers over and over again, because they are master compartmentalizers, which can be wonderful. Right. You can really focus on work and do what you need to do in a beautiful way, is that they simply get so into what they're doing that they're. They're not multitasking in their brain and thinking about the kids and thinking about their wife and. But it doesn't mean they don't care. And so for them to pause in the middle of their day and shift gears can be kind of tricky for them, and they might miss the boat doing that, too.
[00:21:23] Ty: Yeah. I think if we could sort of maybe leave our listeners today with one common thread to hold on to, which would be patience.
Right. To be patient with yourself, Max, or any withdrawers who may be listening to this, as well as to have patience for your partner. If we are trying new things, knowing that we are going to stumble, that we are not going to get it right all the time, and to have that patience and offer one another that.
That grace around. I get it. We're working. I'm working on something new and different here, and it doesn't always feel good, and I may not always do it exactly the right way, but if I can have some patience and kindness towards myself and have some patience and kindness towards the person that I love, then maybe we can get through this together, and. Which creates more of a bond and connection rather than the continuing feeling of disconnection with one another.
[00:22:42] Michelle: That was beautiful. That was great.
[00:22:44] Alefyah: Yeah.
[00:22:45] Ty: I mean, look at the three of us just trying to bounce around different ideas of would this work? Would that work? And we do this all day long, and we're still seeing the struggle here and there. So if you can just have these conversations with each other, that's a huge start, right? Hey, this is the problem. Why don't we try this? Why don't we try that? Would this work? Would this other strategy work? It's going to be unique to you, but the fact that you can have these conversations or just start saying, hey, I want to do this differently and have that patience and that grace that Ty is talking about, it can go so far.
[00:23:20] Ty: Yeah.
[00:23:21] Michelle: I hope that this has helped Max and a lot of other withdrawers learn that there are third options and to have that grace and patience with yourself and your partner as you're trying new things. I hope that any pursuers out there are hearing as clearly that withdrawers absolutely care. Just like pursuers, they're doing the best they can to feel safe and loved and to have connection. Now that we know what's going on with each part of the couple, we want to really dig into these patterns that partners get into and how you're supposed to go about doing things differently and better. That's what we'll talk about next time. We hope you'll join us.
[00:24:07] Ty: Yeah. Take care.
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