[00:00:00] Michelle: I was talking to a friend of ours who is also a therapist.
We decide, we determine something we have in common. I wonder if this is how you are. Also, I'm not very fun at parties, so, you know, our job is to be people people. But I think because of what we do, I tend to go way too deep, way too fast. We always have, just a couple doors down from me, a potluck every Halloween. And it never fails that I meet somebody I've never met before. Hi. How are you? I'm good. How are you? I might say, what do you do for work? And they say, I'm a doctor. And I say, golly, that must be really hard. And then they start to cry, and then they don't want to talk to me anymore.
I lost track of what's normal. Does that happen to you?
[00:00:48] Alefyah: 100%. I'm always, like, the most intense person in the room. And if it's a party full of therapists, it's 10 times worse because we're always getting to the deep stuff right away.
[00:01:00] Michelle: Oh, God, help you. Bring your partner. And everybody's talking about death and grief, and they're like, can we just talk about the nachos? Or.
[00:01:13] Ty: No, I am the life of the party. I'm going to tell you guys that right now.
I mean, I can certainly see how we. How we can go down that road as therapists, but I really try to not be a therapist when I am not in my office. I just. I just want to be tied. I'll just be tie when I go to the party. That's. That's what I want.
[00:01:39] Alefyah: You can take that therapist hat off. Mine kind of is stuck on pretty hard.
[00:01:43] Ty: Is it glued to your head, Alefyah?
[00:01:46] Michelle: No, I think.
Intro: Welcome to Threads of Connection, the podcast where three licensed therapists listen to your stories and help strengthen relationships. We believe in the power of connection. Whether it's with your partner, family, or friends. Join us as we dive into real. Stories and offer expert insights into human relationships. Now let's get connected with Alefyah, Tyana, and Michelle.
[00:02:16] Michelle: So there is kind of an old joke or an old story about a young couple that goes out to dinner, and they notice an older couple that are sitting, eating dinner and not saying anything. And so at the end of the night, the younger couple goes over to the older couple, and they say, we've noticed that you're not talking. Is everything okay? And the older couple says, oh, everything's wonderful. We have a great marriage. We love each other, but there's no point. Point in Having a whole conversation. All we have to do is say, remember the conversation about how I wish you would clean the bathroom more? And the husband will say, yep, I remember it. We know how the whole conversation goes. We don't have to say all the words because you have the same conversation over and over and over again. And so today we want to talk about something like that, where couples get into past patterns. So let me read this letter and then we'll. We'll talk about it a little more. So here's the letter. My wife and I have been in therapy for several months. It has helped us to realize the pursue, withdraw pattern we keep getting into. And our fights have reduced significantly. Sometimes when we do fight, they can become very intense. We still keep getting stuck when the fight is over, something not so significant. But my wife will bring up 10 different grievances from the past. She gets very intense in these moments. And I honestly don't know how to respond. And that is from Chris. So, Chris, thank you first of all, for your letter and for all you listeners. Please send us your questions and your letters. We just appreciate it so much and hope we can help. Ty, you heard Chris's letter. What do you hear? What do you think's going on here?
[00:04:02] Ty: Well, you know, I think what Chris is talking about is super common where we get into these cycles with one another, where we tend to go back and forth. We may repeat the same argument over and over again, or it could be different topics. But how we go about the process of trying to resolve it seems to be pretty similar.
So I think the most important thing to say right off the bat is to say to Chris, what is going on makes perfect sense and that it's normal that maybe you and your wife continue to get into these patterns. And also congratulations for taking the big step to participate in therapy. That's a big move to be able to step up and do that. So congratulations on being so brave with you and your wife doing that. I know when we get into these conflicts or the negative cycle with one another, it can feel heartbreaking at times and really heavy for one of us or both parties. And when they've been going on for quite some time, I think it just kind of continually starts to weigh us down as a couple and creates more and more of a disconnect. We talked about in our first two episodes was withdraw pursuer. And so we talked about those as individuals patterns or tendencies when one person tends to withdraw more and the other person tends to pursue more. Now we're going to put These together and try to help the couple. Right. That when they get stuck in that negative cycle that we name of kind of like pursuing, and then the other person withdraws and how we may be able to offer our listeners some. Some guidance around that.
[00:06:03] Michelle: You know, Chris didn't say. Um, but I'm gonna guess that Chris might be the withdrawer. And the reason I think that is that he talks about his wife bringing up things from the past. So she's really pursuing, wanting that connection and engagement, wanting to fix things. And I don't remember if we said this before, but what's so valuable about a pursuer in a relationship is that they keep the problems and the issues in front of everybody so that they can be worked through. Otherwise, we get a Titanic situation where the problems just build up under the water until you crash on the iceberg.
But Chris's role is really important, too, if he is a withdrawer, because they tend to keep peace. We can't constantly process problems. We can't constantly focus. We need to have some peace and some harmony and just some smooth sailing. That. That would be my guess. So, yeah.
[00:07:04] Ty: Alefyah, what do you think?
[00:07:06] Alefyah: Michelle, I love how you're talking about how both of these roles are just so valuable.
[00:07:11] Michelle: Right.
[00:07:12] Alefyah: A lot of times we feel shame of, oh, I'm always bringing stuff up, and I'm seeing someone who's nagging and criticizing. And the withdrawers can feel like I don't know how to handle problems, I don't know how to talk about things. And I'm always getting criticized as not caring enough. But they. They really do work so well together. And what we know is that both of these people always attract each other, and for good reason. It's a good compliment when it. When it can really work. And this cycle does happen over and over and over again. This is what we do talk about in the majority of our therapy sessions in the beginning, right. Is like just recognizing it's the cycle. Neither one of you is the bad guy. This happens over and over again. And I want to mimic what Ty's saying of, it's great that you were able to go to therapy and that you're calming this cycle down and really recognizing, oh, we're just missing each other. One person's coming towards me more intensely because they really want to make sure the problem's being addressed. My nervous system's getting the message that it's, I'm too much for me, and I start going away. And for good reason. We just keep missing each other. And when we can unite against this cycle. Stuff really does start coming down. And that's what it sounds like has happened for you guys. But what I'm hearing is it's just you're feeling stuck when all the grievances start coming from the past there. I don't know what to do. It's like when my pursuer gets a little bit more intense and starts coming towards me with a lot of stuff. It sounds like you've been really successful and turning towards her instead of turning away and really calming it down. But there's something different about when these grievances come up that it feels especially overwhelming to you. And I just want to tell you that that's very common thing to happen as well, you know, and this is not something separate from your cycle. This is not something unique or different problem that now you have to handle or that it's going to be stuck with. This is the thing that you're dealing with. It's just a little bit more intense. And your nervous system might go back to feeling more overwhelmed when these grievances start coming into the room. But it is very normal, especially with people who've had trauma for their brain to kind of turn into this magnet. And when they get upset about something, it kind of starts grabbing on to all the other moments where they felt exactly the same way.
And then that kind of traumatized brain starts shooting all the stuff up at once. Like, oh, I might be heard in this moment where I feel sad. Let me pick up all the other times I felt sad because I need to be heard with all of it.
[00:09:32] Michelle: That's how you're describing that. That it's not Chris's wife trying to shame him or bombard him. It's her nervous system is now, like you said, latching on to all of that past.
[00:09:44] Ty: Yeah, I love the image of a magnet because as you said that, Alefyah, I, like, closed my eyes and sort of imagined that happening. Of like, oh, yeah, when your nervous system gets triggered, it starts to attach itself. It recalls all of those events where the body felt similarly, and then it reacts in that same way. And just as his partner, Chris's wife, does that, and she becomes reactive, the same happens for him.
[00:10:18] Alefyah: The reactivity just looks very different. But internally, you know, they're both kind of activated right there.
[00:10:24] Michelle: I think what is maybe a little frustrating at first, I see this with couples that I work with is it feels like knowledge will be enough. So Chris and his wife understand now what a cycle is and what their cycle is. And we tend to really think that just knowing something will be enough. But in reality, as you can see from Chris, as we see with couples all the time, knowing, it's maybe half the battle. But because this is not just head work, this is heart work, we have to be able to get through to our nervous system so that we can actually behave differently. Our brain has to be online and our heart so that we can do it differently. One thing I might suggest for Chris and his wife is catching yourself in the cycle is a huge step. So as you're having an argument, maybe noticing, okay, so my heart is starting to beat really fast and my face is red or flushed. I know this is what happens to me when we are in our cycle. And even just saying, okay, we're in our cycle, that doesn't solve the whole thing. But I think that awareness feels powerful because of what you said, Alefyah. Now it's not me against you, it's us against our cycle. Another thing that can be really helpful but really hard to do is if you can calm your nervous system enough to talk about what you are experiencing in the cycle. When people are in their cycle. We don't know for sure what Chris and his wife do, but I'm going to imagine that when she brings up the past, it would be normal and expected for him to say things like, well, that's not important right now, or, why are you bringing that up? That's not what we're fighting about. Or maybe go down a path of now. We're talking about things that happened a couple years ago and we've lost track of the original point that we needed to resolve. Those are all normal things that a person might do when the past comes up in a fight. But can you and I just. I'll be Chris, you be his wife, and maybe try. Try a different way for Chris to respond when that comes up and see what happens.
[00:12:43] Ty: Yeah, let's go ahead. Let's try and, like, do a little role play exercise and see what, you know, how we might be able to turn this around a little bit. So let's see.
Chris. Oh, my goodness. I mean, I just looked at our bank account and, you know, we're supposed to have these conversations about what we're doing with our money. And, I mean, why didn't you tell me you went to the gas stat?
I mean, you spent like $55 at the gas station.
[00:13:13] Michelle: I spent $55 because that's what it takes to fill up my car. I went to the gas station.
[00:13:20] Ty: That.
[00:13:21] Michelle: That is not being irresponsible with money.
[00:13:24] Ty: I'm not so sure that it really cost $55 to fill up the gas tank. I mean, you went just a few days ago. You know, so, you know, we agreed that we would talk about our finances and what we would do with our money. And, you know, I feel like.
I mean, you do this all the time, Chris, like, just a few months ago, right? You didn't tell me that you were spending all this money. And here you go again, after we made this agreement. Now you're going back getting, like, you know, I just want you to talk to me about these kind of things.
[00:13:58] Michelle: Okay? I can tell this is really hard. I can tell we're in our cycle. You know, our therapist would say that. And when you start talking about the past, it's. It's. I can't respond. I feel really defensive right Now, Ty, there's $55 today, and now you're talking about things I did in the past. I'm having a hard time with not being defensive because it's. It's just so much.
And now you say, oh, Chris, I love you. All our problems are fixed.
[00:14:36] Ty: Yes. In a perfect world, wife would say, oh, honey, you're right. And we are in our cycle. And I shouldn't be bringing up the past, but we know that that is not the case, that oftentimes couples get to a place where they can't stop themselves, where, you know, I could see a completely. You know, Michelle and I, we could have gone on and on. Right. I could have went back and forth and said, I don't care what our therapist said because she ain't in here, and I'm talking to you about what you did. And we made this agreement so I could see how this could just sort of get bigger and bigger, and Chris could continue to feel more and more overwhelmed.
[00:15:24] Alefyah: Why?
[00:15:24] Ty: He really doesn't feel like he has a chance to say anything. What you think, Alefyah?
[00:15:29] Alefyah: Yeah, 100. I mean, Chris kind of did a good job of. Oh, noticing the cycle. Let me pause. Let me say it's gonna be hard for me to not get defensive instead of actually getting defensive. But I'm curious for you, Ty, how did that feel? Kind of getting in the shoes of the spouse, hearing that and kind of feeling riled up. Did it feel like you could pause and say, you're right, we're in the cycle, or did that feel like it was silencing you?
[00:15:54] Michelle: You.
[00:15:54] Ty: Oh, no, no, no, no, no.
I. Like I said, I could have gone on and on. I was already thinking of comebacks for Chris.
Of. Don't bring up the therapist. Don't you tell me what's going on with you, because I'm ticked off already. So I could feel that energy building up in me, even in our role play. Yeah, it would be too hard to stop.
[00:16:22] Alefyah: And that's good awareness. So a lot of these role plays turn into real plays very often.
[00:16:27] Michelle: And.
[00:16:27] Alefyah: Yeah. So you, like, I can feel this energy getting ramped up in me.
[00:16:32] Ty: Yeah.
[00:16:32] Alefyah: As she's saying, oh, defensive. I can't do this, Ty. That's really good awareness. You're kind of really stepping into the shoes of Chris's partner here and saying, ah, that would not work for me. Because here we are saying, oh, once you know, it's the cycle, once you guys both name it, it's the cycle. We'll just walk away, unite against it. But that didn't really work out here too well, did it?
[00:16:54] Michelle: Right.
[00:16:54] Alefyah: There was something that happened that even though you know you're in the cycle, your partner's telling you you're in the cycle, that doesn't calm you down. There was something that was kind of activating you even more. So can you think about what that might have been? At what point did you. Your body start gearing up a little bit more during that role play?
[00:17:14] Ty: In just kind of thinking back to kind of the feeling of getting revved up, I. I could feel my heart racing a little bit more. And, you know, when Chris or Michelle said, hey, I think we're getting in the cycle, that just. It just went in one ear and out the other. I mean, it literally just passed me by. That did not help. It was not settling to me. And I don't mean that because we were trying to be more kind of challenging in the role play. I just didn't really hear it. I mean, it. It did not permeate me even in doing the role play. So, I mean, I think that would be important to note. And I just. I had this urge to just say more. I want it to be heard.
Listen to me. Like, we not just gonna stop. We gotta. We got to keep going. For whatever reason, that was what was sort of bubbling up for me.
[00:18:17] Alefyah: Great awareness. So your heart started racing more. You're already desperate to be heard. As you know, most of these cycles start with the pursuer really having a desperate need to be heard. So just putting a. Stop butting on it, especially the withdrawal just now we're in the cycle. I. That's not gonna calm everything down. That can also. That can feel like A strategy to silence you in another way. Right. And now I'm gonna, like, piggyback with, oh, the therapist wants to silence you too. So it does not feel good for a pursuer who's just so desperate to, like, I really need to be understood and heard right here.
So what are some things we can do besides naming the cycle that can make the pursuer feel like, I'm heard and I'm understood, but at the same time, we can't really understand you or be here for you. Just right now, I want to hear you, but I cannot hear you right now because we're in the cycle. So really sending over that desire and that. I need to hear you. I want to hear you. It's just the right now that I can't is so important.
[00:19:22] Michelle: So, Ty, how would it have felt if I had said to you, ty, I know money is really important to you, and it's important to me too. I want us to agree.
I want us to be a team.
It's hard to talk about right now, but can we talk about this in about 30 minutes and try to find a solution? How would that.
[00:19:51] Alefyah: Ty, how did that feel?
[00:19:54] Ty: It felt a little bit different than the initial words from Chris. Right. Or from Michelle, where I was just like, okay, I can't listen to you right now. Did it completely kind of relax me? No.
I think the pursuer energy probably. If we were gonna, like, give it a score, right? It probably went from like, a seven to, like, maybe a four for. So it. It did decrease a little bit, but there was still this sort of like, ooh, but I still want to say something or I still want to engage. And I think that's important for us to acknowledge. Right. Chris may not ever be able to say or find the exact words to maybe take his wife from a seven to a one, and that's okay. But if there is a way, if there are some words that slowly, kind of incrementally sort of help soothe her, and this is me being a pursuer in this moment, I think that's okay. Right? So if his wife heard that and said, yeah, you're right. I mean, I probably got riled up. You know, I still won't. I still got lots of things I could say, but I get it. I'm going to sort of. All right, let's take a few minutes and just breathe, because we're trying to do this thing different. And I want to, too.
[00:21:20] Michelle: I think what you're describing, Ty, is exactly why we know couples get better when they're in therapy together. Because if Chris were just doing individual therapy, you're right. There is nothing he can say that will a hundred percent take care of his wife. She also has to be aware of the cycle and make choices to say to take ownership for herself in order to have sex. Some. Some ownership of her own escalation. And I want to be clear, by ownership, I don't mean blame. I don't mean saying wrong. I just mean saying, here's what's happening with me right now in a respectful way, in an honest way. When only one person is in therapy or both people are in individual therapy away from each other, they're not learning how to come together. They created the cycle together. They will only change the cycle together.
[00:22:13] Alefyah: Yeah, really, really well said. I mean, just the way you're describing it, I can feel people uniting against it and it takes both sides. And I like what you said to Ty of like, okay, it took me from the seven to four, and there's nothing that Chris is going to say that is going to fully de. Escalate Ty in that moment. And that's not the goal. When you're activated. The goal is not to soothe and calm each other down. The goal is to get calm enough that you can walk away from the cycle. You're going to get de escalated and solve the problem. Do all that when your nervous system is calm. You just. And what Tai's doing beautifully and which is something that you hopefully will get better and better at is gauging. Oh, I was at a seven. Oh, now my. My pursuer energy is at a four. So even if you can just start doing that, it'll make a huge difference.
[00:22:59] Ty: Yeah, that's important. Yeah. So I, I love what you said about you won't completely be able to like, soothe or de escalate your partner, but we just have to sort of get deactivated enough, just enough to sort of settle. Right. And I think that makes so much sense. And I hope our listeners can kind of take that information and hold onto that, because I think that's important for both parties to be able to hold on to. My partner can't take it all away from me. And for the partner to hear, it's not my job and it's not within my bandwidth to be able to do that for my partner. And if couples or listeners can walk away with that, I mean, I think that's a great nugget to hold onto.
[00:23:51] Michelle: That is a good nugget. Ty. I. I want our listeners to know it's not the only way to lean in when things are tough. And I hope that everyone will come back and hear more because in future episodes we will talk about other strategies that might be helpful. The one that we described today can be really hard sometimes. So it's a start. Right?
[00:24:14] Ty: Right. And I think wanting to encourage Chris and his wife and all of the Chris's and their partners. Right. All of our listeners today, be patient with yourselves. This is hard stuff. We're learning something very new and very different to do in this extremely important relationship and takes time and it takes patience and a willingness to do things differently.
[00:24:46] Alefyah: So beautifully said, Ty. Yeah, that self compassion is so important during this process. We are learning how to do it completely differently than we ever have, you know, in our relationships and for some of us, completely differently than we've ever interacted with people. So that patience is so important during this process. I hope all of you got at least some nuggets from today's episode. I hope you guys join us next week. We got a fun topic.
[00:25:11] Michelle: Oh, I can't wait.
[00:25:13] Ty: Sounds like fun.
[00:25:17] Michelle: Thank you for joining this week's discussion on Threads of Connection. If you have a question you want answered on the air or an idea for future topics, email
[email protected] or message us on Instagram or Facebook. You'll find us at Threads of Connection Podcast. Please subscribe, leave a review and share Threads of Connection with everyone you're connected to. Thank you for being part of the conversation. Until next time, be kind and stay connected.
