[00:00:00] Michelle: Sometimes you have to choose between short term comfort and long term comfort. So it may be uncomfortable right now for me to set this boundary and have you not be very happy with me, but long term, you probably are going to be more comfortable around me. You'll be safer for me, I'll be safer for you if we're being honest with each other about what's okay and what's not okay.
Intro: Welcome to Threads of Connection, the podcast where three licensed therapists listen to your stories and help strengthen relationships. We believe in the power of connection, whether it's with your partner, family, or friends. Join us as we dive into real stories and offer expert insights into human relationships. Now let's get connected with Alefyah, Tyana and Michelle.
[00:00:52] Ty: Well, ladies, what we're going to talk about today are boundaries.
I can remember boundaries was a really big thing when I finished school or. And it just seemed to, like, explode even more. You see it everywhere on, like, social media and how to have good boundaries, what that looks like, how you're supposed to do that. But I think it's also really confusing.
I think we maybe have a letter.
[00:01:23] Alefyah: We have.
[00:01:26] Michelle: Yes. Yes. Okay, so. Dear Ty, Alefyah, and Michelle, I love the show and I need help in couples therapy with my partner of 10 years. I keep getting feedback that I need to have better boundaries. I'm really trying. I want to be a good partner to her, and I can see how not having firm boundaries winds up with me being resentful. But I'm getting some tough feedback. When I do assert myself, I'm being told that I'm too harsh. This is exactly the opposite of how I want to be. I want to be clear and firm, but also nice to other people. What am I doing wrong? And it's signed from Casey. So, first of all, Casey, thank you. And if anybody else wants to write a letter, we'd love to hear what's on your mind. Just look in the show notes and click on the link. You can send us a letter. We'll read on the air. But let's talk about Casey's issues. It's exactly what you're saying, Ty. The idea of boundaries is good, but when you actually go to implement them. First of all, sometimes people aren't used to you having boundaries, and so they'll really push back because you're being different. And then they're just. They're not all that easy. It's like anything that you do that's new. What I've observed in session is people, when they first try to Implement boundaries, they cut, they go too far, and then eventually, as they're sort of learning how to do it, they'll. They'll sort of pull back. So I'll give a quick example, if that's okay. So let's. Let's see. So one thing about boundaries is that boundaries are supposed to talk about what is okay and what's not okay with you and how you intend to conduct yourself accordingly.
So a boundary might be. It's really important to me that we leave the house on time to have dinner with my parents. And so I'm going to leave at 5:45, and if you're not ready yet, you'll just need to drive separately. I think that's a pretty healthy boundary. It says, here's what's important to me. It's not okay to be late. Here's what I'm going to do. And then you can adjust accordingly.
But a lot of times where people are new at boundaries, that boundary might come across as, I don't want to be late. So my boundary is, you need to be ready by 5:45, which is not a boundary. That's just telling somebody else what to do. And delivery is really important.
So that's kind of my example of how boundaries can get a little harsh. And I don't know what exactly Casey's boundaries are or how she's delivering them, but I'm thinking maybe it's something along those lines that it has to be about, hey, you, be you. Do you. But here's how I'm going to do me. And that can be very loving. And I love that she said, I don't want to be resentful anymore. Because if you're the person tapping your toe mad that you're going to be late for dinner, you're going to be resentful of your partner for not being ready on time. And that's on. That's on you.
[00:04:29] Alefyah: Really?
[00:04:30] Michelle: Do you see that a similar trend in people having a hard time setting boundaries when it's new to them?
[00:04:39] Ty: Yeah, I think clients often come in talking about boundaries and wanting to kind of set some appropriate kind of limits. Or we may realize during the course of therapy. Right. That they maybe need to work on setting some limits with the people that they love. But I wonder a little bit, you know, Alifia, what are. What are your thoughts like around boundaries and sometimes how we can kind of go. The pendulum can swing too quickly or too far to the other side. What are your thoughts?
[00:05:12] Alefyah: Yeah, I've had similar experiences with that. Michelle is Talking about where it starts coming off as maybe too harsh in the beginning because you're learning your rhythm with it, sometimes it can come off as controlling an ultimatum versus a boundary, and people are just learning how to do it differently. One thing I read about boundaries that was helpful for me was learning the distinction between an emotional wall and a boundary. Where a therapist had said, an emotional wall is kind of keeping people out and keeping people at a distance, and a healthy boundary is teaching people, inviting them in to interact with you in a way that feels safe to you.
[00:05:52] Michelle: I like that. That's really. That's good.
[00:05:55] Ty: I usually. I have always used the imagery for boundaries as a gate.
And so with a gate, you can see what's coming, and you have a choice to open that gate or to keep that gate closed.
With an emotional wall or a wall or a brick wall around your home or your heart, you can't see out and no one can see in. So we're not able to really create those meaningful relationships when we have that emotional wall.
[00:06:38] Alefyah: Right.
[00:06:38] Ty: So the Fed gives you a lot of power and choice in how you engage in relationships.
[00:06:44] Michelle: So could y'all, because those are good, good words. I love hearing that. Do you have examples, either of you, in mind, of what might be a brick wall around your heart versus a healthy fence where you open the gate at times and don't open the gate? Do you have examples?
[00:07:01] Alefyah: I think a good brick wall that I hear over and over again is ghosting.
[00:07:05] Michelle: Great.
[00:07:05] Alefyah: Yeah. I mean, this is happening, you know, it's almost this phenomenon that's happening all the time with people, and they think they're doing it in the right way. Like, oh, no, this person didn't treat me the right way. I'm cutting them off, I'm done. And there's no communication around it.
[00:07:22] Michelle: So that sounds like punishment to me, which is very other directed, as opposed to self protection, which is more assertive, I think, in saying, here's why I'd like to pause or end our communication.
[00:07:40] Alefyah: And what I do like about ghosting is that at least you're having more of an awareness of something. Feels uncomfortable to me. So maybe you're at the starting point of, hey, this is a place, maybe a place I need a boundary. And then not knowing how to do it, you just put that wall up.
[00:07:56] Ty: Right, right. So just completely turning away, shutting people out in an effort to protect yourself or to feel like you're treating yourself well. But what happens is it may be a punishment to the other person and you're not that's not practicing boundaries. That's just. I'm just turning away because I don't. Because I feel like you've maybe done me wrong and that's it. Right. But there are other steps that are part of setting boundaries or being assertive or being in relationship with people where there's that middle ground of, hey, when we had this conversation, that upset me. That made me angry, that made me frustrated. I felt like you didn't hear me. And so I wanted to have that conversation with you because I value our connection or relationship. And, you know, can we talk about this? And that's a way for you to kind of set a boundary or, you know, don't yell at me. That is a. That's a boundary. I don't want my friends or a potential significant other to. To yell or.
I think a big one is, like, in relationships. I don't know if you ladies get this. Sometimes working with couples where they will call each other outside of their given name, they will call the other one negative names.
[00:09:31] Michelle: Do you mean like. Like insults? Is that what you're saying? Or like, her name is Mary, but he calls her Sue. Like, what?
[00:09:39] Ty: That's kind of a name, but kind of a name.
[00:09:42] Michelle: Okay.
[00:09:42] Alefyah: I thought those.
[00:09:44] Ty: Those other names, right? That calling each other not lazy or selfish, but some other words.
And so, you know, I. I have found that that happens sometimes in relationships, and maybe that's an extreme example, but that is like a hard boundary where people don't respect it.
[00:10:03] Michelle: So I'd love to give people some words. And I think a really healthy boundary probably does include a couple of parts, and it's different for each circumstance. But in the one you're talking about, I think it starts with, hey, when we're arguing and you call me a.
[00:10:20] Alefyah: Name.
[00:10:22] Michelle: I feel discouraged. I feel deflated, I feel super angry, whatever it is that you feel. And it honestly makes it hard for me to show up as my best self.
So I'm asking you not to do that, and I'm letting you know, if you do, that's an automatic timeout for me. I can't be who I want to be.
So Brene Brown's definition of boundaries is what? Boundaries need to be in place so that I can stay in my integrity and make the most generous assumptions about you. And so in this case, the boundary is, I need you not to hit below the belt. I need you not to call names, because I can't say in my integrity. My integrity is, I want to be. I want to fight fair, and I want to be a good communicator and I want to be kind and loving or whatever, assertive. And I can't stay in my integrity when I'm talking to a person who's calling me names. And I can't make generous assumptions about you because when you start calling me names, all I want to do is call you names because I think you're out to get me. So I think it's multiple parts. Here's very clearly what is and isn't. Okay, here's why. Because here's how it impacts me and here's what I intend to do depending on whether you do or don't honor my boundary.
I love that.
[00:11:44] Alefyah: I love that. So the, the parts that you're saying are I need you to do this so that I can show up as my best self and is there a part of if you can't do this, then you said I'm going to take a time out. I can't be here for this conversation.
Yeah.
[00:12:05] Ty: That's a very clear way.
[00:12:07] Alefyah: Right.
[00:12:07] Ty: Of having a conversation where you are addressing the concern and asking for what you need and then setting a limit.
[00:12:19] Alefyah: Right.
[00:12:20] Ty: On if this happens again, I'm going to need to take a time out.
[00:12:26] Michelle: That to me feels different from a punishment where we were saying ghosting kind of feels like a punishment. I feel like the punishment is if you call me a name, I'm going to call you a worse name or I'm going to let people know that that's how you conduct yourself or that's not really showing up with your own.
[00:12:45] Alefyah: Yes.
[00:12:46] Michelle: Requirements or your own needs.
It's more just saying, you smack me, I'm going to smack you too. Which we all know doesn't might be fair.
[00:12:55] Alefyah: That's a good distinction.
[00:12:57] Michelle: But doesn't typically end up in these healthy life giving interactions that we're hoping for. Casey was talking about she and her partner, but boundaries, oh my gosh, we need them with everybody. We need them with our families of origin. For sure. We need them. And as we're recording this, there's a holiday coming up and so maybe that's just really on my mind. We need them at work, we need them with our friends.
So what about the part where Casey is saying, I didn't used to set boundaries, now that I am, I'm not getting good feedback. And maybe she's being a little ham fisted. That wouldn't be unusual for people to struggle when they're first setting boundaries. But I also wonder if she has unknowingly trained people that she won't assert boundaries. You know, and so going back to the being late, if. Let's say her partner's consistently late. And y'all, I'm just gonna tell you right now, I'm always the late one. So this is not. This is. I'm not criticizing anybody, but let's say for 10 years in a relationship, her partner has been late more often than not, in case he hasn't said anything about it. She has kind of trained her partner that it's okay. Right now she's saying it's not okay. And I get that. Her partner. That probably feels uncomfortable because that's not what she's used to. And she's her partner's kind of saying, like, no, Casey, that's not how we do it. We. We let it be okay that I'm late.
[00:14:30] Ty: So.
[00:14:30] Michelle: So it is hard. She may be experiencing Casey is too harsh when really maybe Casey's just being fair.
[00:14:37] Alefyah: Right? Yes. So it's a lot of different things that could be coming up. Right. Maybe you're not setting the boundary properly where you're like we said, if you do this, then I have to walk away. And I want to get back to that point first before I answer what you're saying. If people are not used to the boundaries, which I think happens a lot, how do we make that distinction very clear? Because you do need to set a boundary and then say, what are you going to do if the other. If the person doesn't respect the boundary? Because you're not setting the boundary with this expectation that everybody's gonna be like, oh, that's great. That's wonderful. Let me just respect that. A lot of times when you start setting boundaries, people are not gonna respect it. You gotta know what. How you're gonna protect yourself when it does happen. And you're right, it's not. If you don't do this, I'm gonna be start insulting you back. There's a difference between that and if you don't talk to me with respect, I can't have an effective conversation with you. So I. I can't be part of this conversation right now. Right. How do you know the difference between that consequence versus a retaliation, in a way?
[00:15:41] Michelle: Well, again, I think it's about saying, I'm asking you to help me protect my integrity. If you don't, here's how I'm going to protect my integrity. So it isn't outward. It isn't, I'm going to attack you or hurt you or harm you. It's. I'm going to take the steps that are needed for me to be safe or respect myself or whatever that is.
[00:16:07] Alefyah: Right.
[00:16:07] Michelle: So that would be more the boundary versus if you don't do what I want, this is what I'm going to do to you.
[00:16:13] Alefyah: Exactly.
That's where we get into control versus boundaries. Right. Because the boundary is this is how I need to interact to make me feel safe, my integrity safe, and for our interaction to feel healthy for me.
And so if you can't do that, I have to remove myself from the interaction.
[00:16:31] Michelle: And the answer can be no. No is a legitimate answer to a request for a boundary. And then the person who's setting the boundary has to be willing to do whatever it is they said they were going to do to leave without the late person or drop the conversation for now.
So it is. Right. I love that you said that's the difference between a boundary and control. Control says no, I'm going to arrange this so you have to do what I want. No. Everybody gets to choose how they want to conduct themselves. And for some people, it might be worth it to drive by yourself so you don't get pestered about being on time. And they may choose that option. And that's legitimate. That's a legitimate option.
[00:17:14] Alefyah: Yeah. And so it's not about changing people. It's not about controlling people. So even with the name calling, I mean, I'm hoping your partner doesn't want to call you names, but it's not about just telling them you're not allowed to do this. You have to stop.
[00:17:28] Michelle: It's.
[00:17:29] Alefyah: You don't get to interact with me. If you're be disparaging and you can control that, you're controlling yourself and what you choose to be a part of.
[00:17:41] Michelle: Yeah, no, I like that.
[00:17:45] Alefyah: And I guess going back to what you asked earlier. Yeah. When you start setting boundaries, people are not going to be comfortable with it a lot. Oftentimes we don't set boundaries in the first place because we're. It brings us connection. A lot of our maladaptive behaviors come from getting more connection from them. So when we grow and when we get healthy, sometimes it causes a little bit of disconnection from people, and that's okay. You're going to have to tolerate some of that in your growth journey.
And what do you do with that? I think a lot of it is coming back to, well, people get to say, no, you're not doing it to make everybody comfortable.
What's your goal? What's the goal in setting the boundary?
[00:18:26] Michelle: And I think it's sort of a.
Sometimes you have to choose between short term comfort and long term comfort. So it may be uncomfortable right now for me to set this boundary and have you not be very happy with me, but long term, you probably are going to be more comfortable around me. You'll be safer for me. I'll be safer for you. If we're being honest with each other about what's okay and what's not okay. But I'm not trying to gloss over it is uncomfortable. As Casey showed us in the very beginning, there's a learning curve to.
[00:19:03] Alefyah: Absolutely.
[00:19:04] Ty: Yeah. Yeah. I think another piece to this, just to add on to what you both have shared, is sometimes we maybe need to start small when we're making huge changes, such as trying to set boundaries with our loved ones or people in our lives. I think sometimes we want to paint that with a broad brush and we want to set boundaries with the mailman and our mom. And I think sometimes we have to sort of start with that most important relationship or the least important relationship. Right. Where we can sort of incrementally kind of test it out and gain a little bit more confidence and awareness of, like, how to do this in a better way. If you start with the most important relationship. Lay it out there. I need to set boundaries. And so I'm. Maybe I might swing to the other side of the pendulum. I need you to help me gently kind of say, okay, that felt a little bit too much, you know, or if you're going to go with the least important relationship, then maybe you can have a little bit of freedom to make some mistakes and it won't impact the relationship to the same degree as if it was your partner or a parent or a child.
[00:20:21] Alefyah: That's a good. That's a really. That's really good advice. Yeah. I often tell people to see where your nervous system feels more settled. And then when you're learning new strategies, start there instead of trying to do it everywhere. And usually it's not your mama.
Some of your unhealthy strategies are coming from. But.
[00:20:42] Ty: Right.
[00:20:44] Michelle: You know, I heard this recently and it's such good advice, and I am so sorry. I don't know where I heard it. So if a listener out there heard this somewhere else and you. And you want to let us know where I heard this, I would appreciate it. But it's such a good point. I'm going to share without telling the source, which is that when you're saying no to something or someone, a lot of times it comes off better if you make it a general rule rather than specific. So, for example, I have cut way back on how many weekend obligations I'm willing to have goes over better than, I'm too busy to hang out with you this weekend. So one is, this is how I'm conducting my life, and it's not as personal. And the other, it can very easily be interpreted as, I don't want to hang out with you. So I just thought that was a nice nuance. And I'm sorry, I can't remember who said it.
[00:21:43] Ty: Somebody really wise, a last person once.
[00:21:48] Michelle: Said it was a fortune cookie. No, I'm kidding.
[00:21:53] Ty: Fortune cookies taught me about boundaries.
Hopefully we've given Casey some suggestions and maybe even normalized.
[00:22:05] Alefyah: Right.
[00:22:05] Ty: Her experience. Experience of trying to practice setting limits or boundaries with her. Her important other. And I think that's huge. So how do we sort of, like, put a bow on this for her?
[00:22:18] Alefyah: If. If we were to break down the pieces of the boundary into concrete steps? What would each of you say that looks like?
[00:22:29] Ty: So let's give Casey some takeaways on how she can set limits and continue to practice this important work of setting boundaries with her partner and to not kind of continue to feel that discouragement, I think, that she had mentioned and to not feel resentful. Right. So I think. And you. You ladies jump in here if I am incorrect. But we want to be able to name the injury or the hurt, then we want to also ask for what we need.
I need you to fill in the blank, Be on time, you know, use nice words or something to that effect, and then also be ready to share with that person if you cannot.
Right. If you are unable to meet my need, then this is what I will need to do in order to maintain my integrity so that I can be as generous to you in our relationship.
[00:23:44] Michelle: I love that. I think that's so good. And you didn't say this specifically, but you demonstrated it really well that just taking ownership, you know, that it isn't an attack or a criticism. It's saying, hey, this is how I function best, doesn't necessarily comment on the other person for being insufficient or needing to be a different person. It just is that. That ownership. This is how I know I operate best.
So I'm just letting you know I'd love your help on that. If that's not something you can give, here's what I'll need to do instead.
[00:24:23] Ty: Absolutely.
[00:24:25] Alefyah: 100%.
[00:24:25] Michelle: Yeah.
[00:24:26] Alefyah: Just like we were saying, how do you invite somebody in to have a healthy interaction with you?
It's not about how to get them to change or be a different person.
[00:24:38] Michelle: And I would extend that to when you're setting the boundary. So we're saying right now, as we explain what the boundary will be, then there comes the moment where it's time to enforce it. That can also be done, I think, in a fairly loving spirit of, hey, it's 5:45. I see you're not ready. I'm going to go ahead and get on the road. I can't wait to see you there. So it doesn't have to be animosity, right? Or in the fight, there's probably some animosity. But to say, okay, gosh, this is. This is what I was talking about earlier. You just called me blank. So I'm going to take a break. Once I'm cooled off, I'll circle back and maybe we can talk some more.
[00:25:22] Alefyah: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Those are great examples of just pausing. This. This is where my limit is. Knowing where your limit is, removing yourself and resetting. And you did it beautifully for those examples. But I can see how it takes some time to really get. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that's where it gets tricky. I think you have to ask yourself, first of all, getting really good at knowing my limit was just touched. Does my body start cringing when I'm there? Do I get better and better at knowing to not put myself in situations where I'm past my limit? And you'll get good at knowing when you're putting your nervous system in situations way past its limit. And so knowing that and then asking yourself, do I accept this other person? Am I trying to change this other person? Or am I trying to put myself in situations that make me feel like I have my integrity and my safety?
[00:26:20] Michelle: And you've heard us say it before. You'll hear us say it a lot again. If you don't do it perfectly, and you probably won't, there's always repair. So, Kasey, you can go back to the folks who've given you that negative feedback, and I don't want you to own something that isn't yours. I don't want you to say, I'm sorry, I'm setting a boundary. But I think you can say, hey, I sort of got from your feedback that you didn't like how that came off.
I'm really trying to learn how to respect my own boundaries and ask for those. And I'm going to keep trying to do it in a way that I hope will feel better.
So it's not taking the boundary back but letting a person know, hey, you're important to me. And I'm trying to have really good boundaries with people who are important to me, and I'm still learning. So thank you for your patience and I'll keep trying.
[00:27:10] Ty: And when you, when someone hears that from a person that they care about, they can really take that in and allow you to have those missteps or miscues. When the relationship is important, that other person will still be there.
[00:27:25] Michelle: Yeah. Right.
[00:27:29] Alefyah: Yeah.
[00:27:31] Ty: Well, Casey, we certainly hope that this is that this conversation has been helpful for you and that you can take away some of what we've shared today and carry it with you and know that you're trying, this is new and it's okay, and to have some patience with yourself.
[00:27:58] Michelle: Thank you for joining this week's discussion on Threads of Connection. If you have a question you want answered on the air or an idea for future topics, email
[email protected] or message us on Instagram or Facebook. You'll find us at Threads of Connection Podcast. Please subscribe, leave a review and share Threads of Connection with everyone you're connected to. Thank you for being part of the conversation. Until next time, be kind and stay connected.
